Status: FED
· Chili
· White Chalupa
· Pork Loin + Potatoes + Spicy Apple Sauce
· Amy brought pie
Guest #116.1: Ash Yoon
Occupation: Acupuncturist
Contributed: banana pudding & needles
Sent thank-you: email, and then she brought me a jar of ground perilla seeds.
Guest #116.2: Naomi Frank
Occupation: Acupuncturist
Contributed: Turkey Flat 2009 Butcher’s Block & needles
Sent thank-you: email
Guest #116.3: Mark Tessaro
Occupation: Pediatrician
Contributed: alder and oak smoked salmon, that his mother makes and ships from B.C., throat needle thingee
Sent thank-you: Called IMMEDIATELY after dinner. If I were this guy’s wife, I sure would be proud of him.
Guest #116.4: Amy Wood
Contributed: pecan pies
Sent thank-you: email
Guest #116.4: Paul Terefenko
Occupation: I only know him through Amy
Contributed: Catena 2009 Malbec
Sent thank-you: phone
BACK PAIN
YOON
Do you guys have back pain right now?
MINTZ
Did you actually bring your needles?
YOON
I did. I’m hoping to poke somebody.
Did you actually bring your needles?
YOON
I did. I’m hoping to poke somebody.
MINTZ
I’d love for you to do some poking.
I’d love for you to do some poking.
WOOD
I’m wearing a dress, so …
I’m wearing a dress, so …
TEREFENKO
You say you can do back pain through the hand?
YOON
Yes.
You say you can do back pain through the hand?
YOON
Yes.
TEREFENKO
I’m definitely in.
I’m definitely in.
MINTZ
We’ll wait until after the second course. The photographer will be here.
We’ll wait until after the second course. The photographer will be here.
YOON
Before dessert.
Before dessert.
MINTZ
Is that the appropriate time.
Is that the appropriate time.
YOON
Well, you can relax with the needles and gives us a little time to digest.
Well, you can relax with the needles and gives us a little time to digest.
MINTZ
Normally you would have the client eat three courses before …
Normally you would have the client eat three courses before …
YOON
Of course.
Of course.
This was a fun night.
I WOULD HAVE BLED YOU
YOON
What I would have done in your situation, I would have bled you.
What I would have done in your situation, I would have bled you.
MINTZ
Do you mean that you would have applied leaches? Or that you would have seen me three times a week for five years?
YOON
It would probably take one session. I had a gentleman, I’m always surprised by what I can get away with and what people allow me to do to their bodies. We learn in school, you can’t do stuff like this on westerners. You can’t do bleeding. You can’t do certain types of manipulation.
Do you mean that you would have applied leaches? Or that you would have seen me three times a week for five years?
YOON
It would probably take one session. I had a gentleman, I’m always surprised by what I can get away with and what people allow me to do to their bodies. We learn in school, you can’t do stuff like this on westerners. You can’t do bleeding. You can’t do certain types of manipulation.
FRANK
Explain what bleeding is.
Explain what bleeding is.
MINTZ
You really need to explain what bleeding is.
You really need to explain what bleeding is.
YOON
Bleeding doesn’t mean bleeding quarts and quarts of blood. Bleeding just means I’m going to take a hypodermic needle, which is very different from an acupuncture needle, which is about the width of a hair, and I’m going to prick to release a couple drops of blood. That’s it. It’s usually painless. People don’t even feel it. I had a gentleman just last week who had a range of motion that was one in on either side. I said, I need to bleed you. He’s never had acupuncture before. Bled these points behind his knee. The blood came out black. Sorry guys. We’re eating.
Bleeding doesn’t mean bleeding quarts and quarts of blood. Bleeding just means I’m going to take a hypodermic needle, which is very different from an acupuncture needle, which is about the width of a hair, and I’m going to prick to release a couple drops of blood. That’s it. It’s usually painless. People don’t even feel it. I had a gentleman just last week who had a range of motion that was one in on either side. I said, I need to bleed you. He’s never had acupuncture before. Bled these points behind his knee. The blood came out black. Sorry guys. We’re eating.
EVERYONE
PLEASE CONTINUE
PLEASE CONTINUE
YOON
And five minutes later he had almost 85 percent of his range. And I saw him probably one more time and he had full range of motion.
And five minutes later he had almost 85 percent of his range. And I saw him probably one more time and he had full range of motion.
GAPING AREAS
TESSARO
I have a very different practice than the typical GP and I think one of the reasons I went into emergency is that it’s a very black and white kind of western medicine. You either have an emergency and you are going to need something along the intensive care, inpatient, clear cut, we have a way to deal with this, or you’re not. And I tell a lot of families that (and this is very much more so in the adult world of medicine), because pediatric emergency is really the burden of care is distinguishing viral illness from true emergency or an emergent type of viral illness. But when I used to do adult emergency and training, you got in the habit of saying to people, ‘I don’t know what’s wrong with you. But it’s not one of the emergencies that I’m trained to recognize. So go back to your family doctor.’ And that was always the time when they’d be, ‘ahh.’ Because they weren’t getting answers. I think, at least officially, even when I was in med school, and I graduated in 2006, there was a push happening for us to have a better understanding of what’s out there, in terms of complimentary and alternative medicine. I’m still very ignorant about it. But the little bit I do know, is that there seems to be much more western evidence that enters into the discussion or not, in terms of the effectiveness of acupuncture, as opposed to some other things where you’re really hard pressed to find a good scientific (western scientific) study or paper that shows efficacy or even safety for some things. But I’m glad, and I know a lot of GPs would be glad, to have people out there, who have approaches or things to offer, for patients in our system.
I have a very different practice than the typical GP and I think one of the reasons I went into emergency is that it’s a very black and white kind of western medicine. You either have an emergency and you are going to need something along the intensive care, inpatient, clear cut, we have a way to deal with this, or you’re not. And I tell a lot of families that (and this is very much more so in the adult world of medicine), because pediatric emergency is really the burden of care is distinguishing viral illness from true emergency or an emergent type of viral illness. But when I used to do adult emergency and training, you got in the habit of saying to people, ‘I don’t know what’s wrong with you. But it’s not one of the emergencies that I’m trained to recognize. So go back to your family doctor.’ And that was always the time when they’d be, ‘ahh.’ Because they weren’t getting answers. I think, at least officially, even when I was in med school, and I graduated in 2006, there was a push happening for us to have a better understanding of what’s out there, in terms of complimentary and alternative medicine. I’m still very ignorant about it. But the little bit I do know, is that there seems to be much more western evidence that enters into the discussion or not, in terms of the effectiveness of acupuncture, as opposed to some other things where you’re really hard pressed to find a good scientific (western scientific) study or paper that shows efficacy or even safety for some things. But I’m glad, and I know a lot of GPs would be glad, to have people out there, who have approaches or things to offer, for patients in our system.
FRANK
A great example is chronic pain, which is so badly served. You get these people who get medications because the doctors feel that they have to give them something. It’s so easy to get addicted to them. They cause all these horrible side effects. And you still haven’t solved the original problem. But acupuncture can really help with that. I mean you can do all kinds of things. But I think there are big gaping areas of need.
Rubbed.
Seared.
Roasted.
HOW MUCH DOES ACUPUNCTURE COST?
WOOD
Why do you think it hasn’t caught on? I would say that most of my friends, myself included, if I was having back pain, I would default to massage therapy. Why do you think it hasn’t caught on that way?
Why do you think it hasn’t caught on? I would say that most of my friends, myself included, if I was having back pain, I would default to massage therapy. Why do you think it hasn’t caught on that way?
FRANK
One of the things about Community Acupuncture, that we both do, is that it’s much more affordable. Because we’re seeing multiple people in the same space and so the main overhead, which is the rent, which gets divided. It’s actually inexpensive to perform acupuncture. The needles don’t cost much, even the good ones that we use. But massage is expensive as well.
One of the things about Community Acupuncture, that we both do, is that it’s much more affordable. Because we’re seeing multiple people in the same space and so the main overhead, which is the rent, which gets divided. It’s actually inexpensive to perform acupuncture. The needles don’t cost much, even the good ones that we use. But massage is expensive as well.
WOOD
Maybe it’s the needle thing.
Maybe it’s the needle thing.
YOON
It’s invasive. It’s an invasive procedure.
It’s invasive. It’s an invasive procedure.
MINTZ
So what are the average costs?
YOON
I do a sliding scale of $15 to $35. Basically, I’m a villain in the acupuncture industry because the going rates are $50, if you’re lucky, to $125. So let’s say I’m using the best quality needles that are possible to obtain in North America. They’re $30 for 1000 needles. So let’s say we use 10-15 needles per treatment. That’s cents for a treatment. But people go to acupuncture school and it’s very expensive to complete a degree. So part of the thing is they’re trying to pay back student debt.
MINTZ
As it is with many professionals.
As it is with many professionals.
YOON
It’s nice to be able to say, if somebody comes in with acute pain, back spasm or whatever, ‘I need to see you for the next three days.’ And I can say that because I’m charging them fifteen bucks.
It’s nice to be able to say, if somebody comes in with acute pain, back spasm or whatever, ‘I need to see you for the next three days.’ And I can say that because I’m charging them fifteen bucks.
TESSARO
So right now, for the typical person who has some coverage for complimentary, alternative medical stuff under their private plans, how much dollar value would that represent in acupuncture per year? I know that’s a big spread.
So right now, for the typical person who has some coverage for complimentary, alternative medical stuff under their private plans, how much dollar value would that represent in acupuncture per year? I know that’s a big spread.
YOON
It depends on the plan. I think they do $500, which includes massage, physio and accu. But some plans do have a separate, $300 for massage.
It depends on the plan. I think they do $500, which includes massage, physio and accu. But some plans do have a separate, $300 for massage.
TEREFENKO
Mine is branched out.
Mine is branched out.
FRANK
Some give a percentage towards acupuncture up to a certain level. And a lot of people don’t have them at all.
Some give a percentage towards acupuncture up to a certain level. And a lot of people don’t have them at all.
I see people staying in homeless shelters sometimes. I see a huge range of people, a wide spectrum.
My charcutier, who advised me on the roasting, tells me not to use a carving fork, that it just needlessly releases juice from the meat.
Product placement for La Carnita.
COMMUNITY ACUPUNCTURE
YOON
I would say that practicing community acupuncture, which is a relatively recent phenomenon in Ontario and Canada. This is how acupuncture is practiced traditionally in China and Korea, where you go into a hospital and there is 20 beds lined up and a physician poking around. Everyone is treated in a communal setting. When acupuncture came to the states through … was it Nixon?
FRANK
Yeah. One of Nixon’s aids had appendicitis. James Reston.
I would say that practicing community acupuncture, which is a relatively recent phenomenon in Ontario and Canada. This is how acupuncture is practiced traditionally in China and Korea, where you go into a hospital and there is 20 beds lined up and a physician poking around. Everyone is treated in a communal setting. When acupuncture came to the states through … was it Nixon?
FRANK
Yeah. One of Nixon’s aids had appendicitis. James Reston.
[Reston was, in fact, a journalist, columnist and executive at the New York Times, an enemy of Nixon]
Two important facts about Dr. T:
1. He came early & helped me fold laundry.
2. He is the only person to notice that the Power Man & Iron Fist toys in my gentleman's room are hi-fiving, which they've been doing for months.
YOON
In the 70s, I think it developed, warped into this thing where it was accessible to middle, higher, upper middle class people. So we have this model where you’re seen by one person in a private room and you’re laying there by yourself. So the community acupuncture model is totally different. It’s a huge departure, going back to the traditional model. We have over 300 of these clinics in the US. It’s pretty much exploded in the last three years. I feel like it’s the future of acupuncture. We’re starting to see it germinating in Toronto. But I would say that there are some colleagues that I’m friendly with, that would consider what I’m doing to be fast food acupuncture. Because we’re trained in school to spend an hour with a person and to charge them a whole lot of money. So, it’s not a battle, necessarily, but it’s kind of this weird …
In the 70s, I think it developed, warped into this thing where it was accessible to middle, higher, upper middle class people. So we have this model where you’re seen by one person in a private room and you’re laying there by yourself. So the community acupuncture model is totally different. It’s a huge departure, going back to the traditional model. We have over 300 of these clinics in the US. It’s pretty much exploded in the last three years. I feel like it’s the future of acupuncture. We’re starting to see it germinating in Toronto. But I would say that there are some colleagues that I’m friendly with, that would consider what I’m doing to be fast food acupuncture. Because we’re trained in school to spend an hour with a person and to charge them a whole lot of money. So, it’s not a battle, necessarily, but it’s kind of this weird …
TEREFENKO
Contention
Contention
FRANK
I think that it’s understandable that when you do it in one way and then people come along and do it in a totally different way. People will say perhaps that, because we’re not doing all these different aspects of Chinese medicine … but, you don’t have to have a gourmet meal every time you eat.
TEREFENKO
You do at Corey’s.
You do at Corey’s.
Thank you Twitter, for your suggestion to make it a spicy apple sauce.
Photographer Aaron Harris' Blue Steel.
The most foreboding shot of pie.
Date of publication: Saturday, February 4th, 2012
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