Status: FED
· Brussels Sprouts + Potatoes + Fennel + Mustard Seeds + Parsley + Green Peppercorns + Cilantro Aioli + Dijon
· Eggplant Parmesan
· Kidney Beans + Beets + Apples + Cabbage + Pumpkin Seeds
Guest #104.1: Leanne Iskander
Occupation: student
Sent thank-you: email
Guest #104.2: Noa Mendelsohn
Contributed: Lindt chocolates
Sent thank-you: email
Guest #104.3: Casey Oraa
Occupation: activist
Guest #104.5: Andrea Houston
Occupation: reporter for Xtra
Contributed: Cake with … see Goldsbie
thank you: email
Guest #104.6: Jonathan Goldsbie
Occupation: hair brush “before” photo model, keeper of the sacred scrolls, hobo hobbit, Mammo-bater
Contributed: … chocolate crucifix and rainbow lollipop for cake
Sent thank-you: broccoli in the mail
Guest #104.7: David Zikovitz
Occupation: teacher-in-training
Contributed: Saint-Germain 2008 Bordeaux
Sent thank-you: Called, like, 20 minutes after dinner. Too soon?
1. NEVER PUT ANYTHING DOWN ON PAPER
ORAA
We at Queer Ontario had been working on this education issue already. So when we saw the story, it was like, wait, students at catholic schools can’t have gay-straight alliances? It was news to me. It was news to pretty much everyone in the group.
MINTZ
Can you clarify for me, can students in catholic schools have any sort of gay organization?
ORAA
It depends who you ask. But the reality is no.
Can you clarify for me, can students in catholic schools have any sort of gay organization?
ORAA
It depends who you ask. But the reality is no.
HOUSTON
They can have general equity groups. Leanne’s group, up until just the last couple days, possibly, has been the only LGBT focused group in the province.
They can have general equity groups. Leanne’s group, up until just the last couple days, possibly, has been the only LGBT focused group in the province.
MENDELSOHN
I think Halton was, unfortunately for them and fortunate enough for us, that they went so far as to ban it on paper. It seems fairly clear that there was an unwritten ban across the province. And when the Halton issue went public, we heard all these, … I won’t say what I think of them, but ‘you know what’ principals saying things like, ‘In Ottawa we don’t have this problem because we have these equity groups’. And my lawyer alarm bells went off, like, there’s some weird language going on. Because an equity group is not a GSA. So I get what they’re doing here. They’re saying to students, no you can’t have a GSA. But come and join this other wonderful project, which isn’t what you’re looking for or entitled to.
I think Halton was, unfortunately for them and fortunate enough for us, that they went so far as to ban it on paper. It seems fairly clear that there was an unwritten ban across the province. And when the Halton issue went public, we heard all these, … I won’t say what I think of them, but ‘you know what’ principals saying things like, ‘In Ottawa we don’t have this problem because we have these equity groups’. And my lawyer alarm bells went off, like, there’s some weird language going on. Because an equity group is not a GSA. So I get what they’re doing here. They’re saying to students, no you can’t have a GSA. But come and join this other wonderful project, which isn’t what you’re looking for or entitled to.
MINTZ
What is an equity group? What does that mean?
What is an equity group? What does that mean?
ORAA
The general idea that’s been explained to me from people that have been in them is that, there might be a lot of queer students, but it’s not focused specifically on LGBTQ issues. It’s more of a general anti-oppression group.
The general idea that’s been explained to me from people that have been in them is that, there might be a lot of queer students, but it’s not focused specifically on LGBTQ issues. It’s more of a general anti-oppression group.
ORAA
The GSA is not the endgame issue here. We’re obviously talking about an overall poisoning, a homophobic, transphobic environment. Because teachers in catholic school boards, they sign a document when they come on board, that says they will adhere to a catholic lifestyle. The catholic lifestyle does not include being queer and/or trans. So if you’re exposed as being one or the other, publicly out yourself, they find ways to get rid of you.
The GSA is not the endgame issue here. We’re obviously talking about an overall poisoning, a homophobic, transphobic environment. Because teachers in catholic school boards, they sign a document when they come on board, that says they will adhere to a catholic lifestyle. The catholic lifestyle does not include being queer and/or trans. So if you’re exposed as being one or the other, publicly out yourself, they find ways to get rid of you.
HOUSTON
Jan Butterman, in Edmonton, just last year, came out as trans. He was fired.
Jan Butterman, in Edmonton, just last year, came out as trans. He was fired.
MINTZ
I thought you don’t need to be catholic to work in a catholic school.
I thought you don’t need to be catholic to work in a catholic school.
HOUSTON
Unofficially.
Unofficially.
MINTZ
Well my brother worked in a catholic school.
Well my brother worked in a catholic school.
MENDELSOHN
They can decide that they’re going to hire you. But if they want to discriminate against you, the courts have said, yes you may. Because they’re protected under a section of the constitution and a section that corresponds with the Ontario human rights code, that says, essentially, whatever rights the denominational schools, which in Ontario are the catholic schools, had, in 1867, as part of the bargain of confederation, they’re still going to have those rights. So in the Daly case, where they wouldn’t hire a teacher who’s non-catholic, the courts had to actually go back to the records of 1867 and try to puzzle out, whether at that time, the denominational schools would’ve had the right to select out non-catholic teachers. And they came to the conclusion that yes, they’re entitled. And apparently…
They can decide that they’re going to hire you. But if they want to discriminate against you, the courts have said, yes you may. Because they’re protected under a section of the constitution and a section that corresponds with the Ontario human rights code, that says, essentially, whatever rights the denominational schools, which in Ontario are the catholic schools, had, in 1867, as part of the bargain of confederation, they’re still going to have those rights. So in the Daly case, where they wouldn’t hire a teacher who’s non-catholic, the courts had to actually go back to the records of 1867 and try to puzzle out, whether at that time, the denominational schools would’ve had the right to select out non-catholic teachers. And they came to the conclusion that yes, they’re entitled. And apparently…
MINTZ
That went up to the Supreme Court? Or that was Ontario?
MENDELSOHN
That went up to the Supreme Court? Or that was Ontario?
MENDELSOHN
Definitely Ontario. I can’t remember if that went to the Supreme Court.
…
These schools are answering to the bishops. The ministry’s in there somewhere.
ORAA
The ministry’s abdicated its duty. Let’s be real. They’ve said it’s the responsibility of the school boards and we have no responsibility. And they’ve set all this policy that’s supposed to protect our LGBTQ students but it doesn’t matter. It’s disgusting.
The ministry’s abdicated its duty. Let’s be real. They’ve said it’s the responsibility of the school boards and we have no responsibility. And they’ve set all this policy that’s supposed to protect our LGBTQ students but it doesn’t matter. It’s disgusting.
MINTZ
And how much of their money comes from the province and how much comes from the catholic church?
And how much of their money comes from the province and how much comes from the catholic church?
ORAA
No, they’re publicly funded the same way our public board is funded. We all pay into the pot. The fallacy is that, catholic parents like to say, ‘We fund our own schools and we’re the only ones funding it. So we have the right to say how it works.’
No, they’re publicly funded the same way our public board is funded. We all pay into the pot. The fallacy is that, catholic parents like to say, ‘We fund our own schools and we’re the only ones funding it. So we have the right to say how it works.’
HOUSTON
The box that you check off is purely for demographic purposes. It has nothing to do with funding. Schools are funded on a per-student basis. And that’s why decreasing enrollment is having a serious effect and they’re clinging to this because they need every dollar they can get toward their budgets.
The box that you check off is purely for demographic purposes. It has nothing to do with funding. Schools are funded on a per-student basis. And that’s why decreasing enrollment is having a serious effect and they’re clinging to this because they need every dollar they can get toward their budgets.
ORAA
It’s a publicly funded system. So where’s the line?
It’s a publicly funded system. So where’s the line?
HOUSTON
Who runs the school boards? Is it the bishops or is it the Ministry of Education?
Who runs the school boards? Is it the bishops or is it the Ministry of Education?
MINTZ
Well how does it work for publicly funded Judaism Schools or Muslim Schools or Hindu Schools?
HOUSTON
They don’t exist. The catholic schools get to rewrite the curriculum and edit it, to essentially sterilize it.
Well how does it work for publicly funded Judaism Schools or Muslim Schools or Hindu Schools?
HOUSTON
They don’t exist. The catholic schools get to rewrite the curriculum and edit it, to essentially sterilize it.
GOLDSBIE
There’s a great line in one of your stories about how, while we see the Catholic Board as being a public school board, they see it as an extension of the catholic church. Which, in and of itself, there’s not anything wrong with the fact that we’re paying for it to the same extent that we’re paying for the public board. And the ministry of education has these equity guidelines, the base minimum. And by and large, catholic school boards are refusing to adhere to them.
There’s a great line in one of your stories about how, while we see the Catholic Board as being a public school board, they see it as an extension of the catholic church. Which, in and of itself, there’s not anything wrong with the fact that we’re paying for it to the same extent that we’re paying for the public board. And the ministry of education has these equity guidelines, the base minimum. And by and large, catholic school boards are refusing to adhere to them.
ORAA
And the ministry’s complacent in that too. Because they’re saying, ‘They have the right to ignore our policies.’
And the ministry’s complacent in that too. Because they’re saying, ‘They have the right to ignore our policies.’
GOLDSBIE
My own feeling is, the minimum a school board can do is to take minimal reasonable attempts to ensure that its students don’t kill themselves. And if they’re not willing to do that, then they shouldn’t be getting public money.
My own feeling is, the minimum a school board can do is to take minimal reasonable attempts to ensure that its students don’t kill themselves. And if they’re not willing to do that, then they shouldn’t be getting public money.
3. CATHOLIC SCHOOLS: UNTOUCHABLE
GOLDSBIE
There’s all this political timidity from all parties except the Greens, for whatever that may be worth, to tackle this question. A lot of the parties, particularly this past year, were scared of repeating what happened with John Tory in 2007. That was a very big fear. Because John Tory was getting it with both sides. His thing was to expand the school funding to all religious schools, which in a way would make it more fair. But there were people who were really upset for any number of reasons.
There’s all this political timidity from all parties except the Greens, for whatever that may be worth, to tackle this question. A lot of the parties, particularly this past year, were scared of repeating what happened with John Tory in 2007. That was a very big fear. Because John Tory was getting it with both sides. His thing was to expand the school funding to all religious schools, which in a way would make it more fair. But there were people who were really upset for any number of reasons.
MENDELSOHN
No, not any number of reasons. One reason. Islamophobia.
No, not any number of reasons. One reason. Islamophobia.
GOLDSBIE
I wouldn’t say that was the only reason. But that was the dominant reason.
I wouldn’t say that was the only reason. But that was the dominant reason.
MENDELSOHN
That’s where he was attached from people in his own party. His own base. He was trying to court the ethnic vote by saying, ‘I recognize that the system is unfair. And therefore we need to extend funding to everybody.’ He was the first politician other than the Greens to say it. But his own party went Islamophobic crazy, as did people not in his party. And they said, ‘Fund the madrasahs? Fund the terrorists?’ That destroyed him. That was the end of his election run.
Foraged Quebec herbs, myrica gale spike and green alder cones (but that's another story), that I thought might taste good with cabbage. They didn't.
4. ABOVE THE LAW
HOUSTON
The CCL has been there since the beginning, along with Queer Ontario. EGAL didn’t want anything to do with it.
The CCL has been there since the beginning, along with Queer Ontario. EGAL didn’t want anything to do with it.
ORAA
CCL’s been really supportive on the issue. And it’s really sad that our community organizations that have been authorized to be the leading voices on issues like this have done way less …
CCL’s been really supportive on the issue. And it’s really sad that our community organizations that have been authorized to be the leading voices on issues like this have done way less …
HOUSTON
Nothing.
Nothing.
ORAA
They don’t want to touch it.
They don’t want to touch it.
HOUSTON
They’ve lied.
They’ve lied.
ORAA
They know what the issues are too.
They know what the issues are too.
MINTZ
Who are we talking about?
HOUSTON
Equality for Gays And Lesbians Everywhere, who have lied and not been on the forefront.
Who are we talking about?
HOUSTON
Equality for Gays And Lesbians Everywhere, who have lied and not been on the forefront.
GOLDSBIE
That’s what it stands for? I thought it was a French name. So that’s why there’s no accent.
That’s what it stands for? I thought it was a French name. So that’s why there’s no accent.
ORAA
Some of the organizations from our communities that are supposed to speak for us, when we’re being put to the margins, are being a bit disingenuous with the issue. CCA has been great. They’re really willing to work on the issue.
Some of the organizations from our communities that are supposed to speak for us, when we’re being put to the margins, are being a bit disingenuous with the issue. CCA has been great. They’re really willing to work on the issue.
ISKANDER
I’m still going to be involved in the issue. There are still students there in younger grades who still want the group.
I’m still going to be involved in the issue. There are still students there in younger grades who still want the group.
ORAA
For Queer Ontario, supporting LGBTQ students is an issue that doesn’t really stop with the GSA one. We’re pursuing the sex-ed curriculum angle and we’re going to amp that up again. I think we need to go beyond it. Because I think embedding talk about relationships and identities specifically just within sex-ed is not necessarily the route to go. It’ll be a band-aid solution. But we need to look at integrating it.
For Queer Ontario, supporting LGBTQ students is an issue that doesn’t really stop with the GSA one. We’re pursuing the sex-ed curriculum angle and we’re going to amp that up again. I think we need to go beyond it. Because I think embedding talk about relationships and identities specifically just within sex-ed is not necessarily the route to go. It’ll be a band-aid solution. But we need to look at integrating it.
ZIKOVITZ
But this is stuff that’s already in all the ministry documents.
But this is stuff that’s already in all the ministry documents.
ORAA
Well, they don’t want to enforce it.
MINTZ
The legal framework is there, it’s just not fought for?
ORAA
They’re abdicating their responsibility as far as a lot of us are concerned. Because they’ve created this policy, specifically the one for GSAs. The language is so clear that all school boards must support. It’s an imperative direction. Students who wish to form a gay-straight alliance, McGuinty and them have said, ‘Well, that’s actually just suggested.’ But our education consultant clearly pointed out to us, they don’t seem to have an issue enforcing their policies, and they’re trying to say that all their PPMs are questionable if they can be enforced. They don’t seem to have an issue enforcing the ones where they take over boards or anything related to finance. So how come nobody’s ever pushed back on that? They’re trying to say that their policy is law. But then it’s not law when it gets them into tricky moralistic areas that involve the catholics and they don’t want to fight them.
The legal framework is there, it’s just not fought for?
ORAA
They’re abdicating their responsibility as far as a lot of us are concerned. Because they’ve created this policy, specifically the one for GSAs. The language is so clear that all school boards must support. It’s an imperative direction. Students who wish to form a gay-straight alliance, McGuinty and them have said, ‘Well, that’s actually just suggested.’ But our education consultant clearly pointed out to us, they don’t seem to have an issue enforcing their policies, and they’re trying to say that all their PPMs are questionable if they can be enforced. They don’t seem to have an issue enforcing the ones where they take over boards or anything related to finance. So how come nobody’s ever pushed back on that? They’re trying to say that their policy is law. But then it’s not law when it gets them into tricky moralistic areas that involve the catholics and they don’t want to fight them.
I remember sitting in on a meeting with a bunch of leaders of our community back a few months. What was said at the meeting by a lawyer that was there was that, really, McGuinty and the Liberals, if they wanted to, could just enforce all this policy and let the Catholics sue them. And they would have to fight them off. But they are responsible for defending the rights of everyone. I don’t see how you can see that it makes sense to tell LGBTQ youth, forget about you. You can’t have your support group. And the Ministry knows what GSAs are about. It’s not like they’re buying into the rhetoric. They advocate in their policy that school boards must support students that want these things.
MINTZ
So what it boils down to is the ruling government being willing to go head to head with the Catholic school board.
So what it boils down to is the ruling government being willing to go head to head with the Catholic school board.
ORAA
And the Liberals aren’t.
And the Liberals aren’t.
MINTZ
And does the Catholic school board also teach creationism?
And does the Catholic school board also teach creationism?
HOUSTON
Not anymore. That stopped in the 80s.
Not anymore. That stopped in the 80s.
ORAA
It’s interesting that you’re bringing the direction to what they teach and what they advocate. Because one of the big things they’ve said against GSAs is that they don’t allow them because they don’t support advocacy and activist groups. But they have no problem organizing and shipping busloads of people to Marches for Life against women’s choices when it comes to abortion. So they’re willing to do activism on that front and organize and coordinate it. But when it comes to LGBTQ youth, they can’t have a group so they can support each other?
It’s interesting that you’re bringing the direction to what they teach and what they advocate. Because one of the big things they’ve said against GSAs is that they don’t allow them because they don’t support advocacy and activist groups. But they have no problem organizing and shipping busloads of people to Marches for Life against women’s choices when it comes to abortion. So they’re willing to do activism on that front and organize and coordinate it. But when it comes to LGBTQ youth, they can’t have a group so they can support each other?
ISKANDER
I’m pretty sure we get volunteer hours for March for Life.
I’m pretty sure we get volunteer hours for March for Life.
Date of publication: Saturday, November 12th, 2010
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